Tuesday, January 10, 2006

I read the news today oh boy

All this just goes to show that Gerry has not taken in the implications of Shamir's line-crossing activities, his defense of David Duke, etcetera.Which does not mean I share Duke's views, past or present, I hasten to add. My view is much closer to that of Italian fascism, which it is commonly accepted was neither racist nor anti-semitic until 1943, when against the advice of all its veteran theoreticians it attempted an anti-semitic policy in order to gain Hitler's support during its military collapse. See de Felice, seriatim, in extenso, etc (his "The Jews in Fascist Italy" at 770 pp. is simply the introduction to his five volume biography of Mussolini).Another book which might interest people who are seriously studying the question of anti-semitism is this:"Race and the Third Reich" by Christopher M. Hutton, Polity Press (UK), 2005ISBN 0-7456-3176-2 (hb)ISBN 0-7456-3177-0 (pb)subtitle, very informative : "Linguistics, Racial Anthropology, and Genetics in the Dialectic of Volk"Anonymous 01.09.06 - 2:04 pm #

strange, it lost my IDRowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 2:35 pm #

What's wrong with David Duke?Is he an American traitor like Abramoff and many other Zionists who are on record for spying or helping Zionists' occupation of Palestine?Well one thing is for sure - He went to Syria and called Israeli bluff - Islamic Iran and Syria are threat to the Zionist entity.Shaukat 01.09.06 - 3:12 pm #

Ok, Shaukat, the problem is this : the way that the generally left-of-centre Jewish clicque have things set up in the USA and UK, it is permitted to compaign against zionism on a sort of anti-nationalism-in-general ticket, but the moment you show any signs of not supporting anti-nationalism as such, you are tarred as a 'fascist' and lose all their support. The concealed whammy here is the fact that zionism itself feeds off the left-of-centre worldview, in that it can always justify itself as the last resort of the Jews against the anti-Semitic Right.This creates a double-bind. The reason of course is that anti-Semitism is NOT the same as racism in general, nor is it necessarily connected to Imperialism in the way that the Left pretends. The anti-Semitic Right is NOT the same thing as the racist Right in general, and classic anti-Semitism was in some ways a manifestation of anti-Imperialism itself, in that it was felt that the Jews were the real Imperialists.It is indeed an anomaly - if only because western Imperialism was managed if not pioneered by Jews in the first place, who are quite capable of presenting themselves as the ultimate 'white men' when it suits their purpose - I refer you back to the long quotation from Disraeli I posted last week.Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 3:29 pm #

gerry, if you can't tolerate discussion, I can only say I am sorry for you. I don't agree by far with much written here, I hate and loathe David Duke, so when Shaukut puts that up, I can only say, let him defend the guy, I wouldn't waste my breath on it. I am not a big fan of Shamir's and I understand that Rowan's interpretation of Fascism is quite academic and misses many of the subtleties that the Mediterranean mindset I know very well (and if I had time or interest to discuss, could counter many of his arguments), but that does not mean that allowing people to present their views is giving in to fascism and nazism! You give far too much credit to what a comments space does on a blog. It is a way for other people to participate, and not a righteousness contest. I have only agreed almost entirely with Joe, Duck and Umka on things, but I think that is because we are more engaged in breaking down Hasbara tactics than in actually dismantling or analysing historical material, and we are working along a particular line that does not always get picked up in the comments.I also do take offence that there is this opinion here that only men have the capacity to think seriously. I know you probably don't mean it, since two of your favourite blogs are run by women, but be careful tossing around that kind of comment. When you have calmed down, you can come back to play.thecutter Homepage 01.09.06 - 4:07 pm #

I understand that Rowan's interpretation of Fascism is quite academic and misses many of the subtleties that the Mediterranean mindset I know very well (and if I had time or interest to discuss, could counter many of his arguments)-- well. I wish you could find the time to at least sketch your counter arguments to whatever you think I am trying to say - I admit that I am finding it hard to focus my own argument.Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 4:37 pm #

Rowan, I really (seriously) haven't got time in this period. But, just to give an idea: there is a mindset in this area that is quite interesting, (I've written in Italian about it on occasion) and it has its basis in Italian urbanistics and civic organisation. As you know, Italy until the post war was an agrarian society. This is structured in a paternalistic way, (a social platform, so to speak), yet legalistically and culturally, the cities (also intended as States during much of Italy's history) are where the power is - so you see, there was needed a figure (agrarian and paternal, Mussolini, coming from Predappio was almost perfect) who could relate to the "mass", yet who was interested in "progress" (the agrarian reform, particularly). This figure had to replace the king, yet had to represent the complex nature of "uncontrolled urban development" (no urban planning, until that point, no unification of services, and this is why his connection of the various Regni was successful - i speak basically of transport innovations. Now, the Italians are also very independent, and they have a gross defect of disorganisation. Mussolini capitolised on the Italian mindset, and while he gave a sense of "order", which was deep down desired, he also had to "impose" because Italians do not easily collaborate (every pater is a pater familius, you see, and therefore, imposes independently his lex). This was tolerated initially, but it could not last long, because Mussolini played his cards right at the beginning, but he did not take well enough into account that this would become stability. The "idea" of fascism as a progress system was initially accepted in its socialist form (think of Avanti!, the Socialist paper where Mussolini was the editor), but as a permanent system, it could only be enforced militarily, and this is something the Italians cannot tolerate. It is absolutely out of their existential essense. I hope that was enough for now.thecutter Homepage 01.09.06 - 5:16 pm #

ah, I see ... Italians are chaophilicRowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 5:34 pm #

chaoticists ...Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 5:49 pm #

Yes, Italians have a very particular character which is utterly independent, but having been based for so long predominantly on a binary organisation, it has been hard to bridle them, although many attempts have been made, and none of them turn out "successfully". Mussolini "worked" because he fulfilled the Italian aspirations of progress, but he couldn't last because - besides the deviation of his original promise and the institution of always more draconian and militaristic enforcement of it - the character and history of Italians could not tolerate such a thing for long. I tend to think that Italian Fascism was a much lighter version of German totalitarianism basically accountable to the nature of the Italian people themselves. They are chaotic and they do not stand being made to conform for too long, although they probably aspire to it at some level. I think a social historical perspective has to accompany any study of this period, and it is important to take into account that as soon as it was possible, the Italians turned on Fascism and it was destroyed by the Italian civil war and the Resistance movement. (connected to the armistice, but also, independent of it). Italians do not take kindly to the boot.thecutter Homepage 01.09.06 - 7:02 pm #

Blame me if you like Mary, anyone, but we all got along pretty well until the fascist Rowan closed his own blog and set up camp here.Now he has dragged you into defending yourself against his ideological dictates about who and what Italians are ... all, of course, based in a fascist interpretation (only a couple of weeks ago he was pontificating about the lack of racial purity of Italians).I quite quickly knew where this crippled, wannabe "Superman" comes from - yes he is an even more failed specimen than Nietzsche - but you have marginalized me for having exposed him and for having tried to warn you about what he is up to here ... this crippled Englishman posing as the next "Il Duce".Of course I attack him and I have attacked him in defence of you, but it appears that you would rather fall under his thrall, so so be it.Gerry Hiles 01.09.06 - 8:00 pm #

Goodness me, I'm flattered, I really am. You do me too much honour, Gerry.Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 8:02 pm #

But irrespective of all this let me bring the discussion back to the essential question, which is the Jewish question, of which zionism is merely a part.Italy, in a much more obvious way than Germany, was handicapped by the development of Imperialism, which centred on first Britain and then increasingly the USA.In order to avoid being subjected to permanent under-development, Italy had to find a way of preventing international finance capital from simply turning it into a repository of cheap labour and agricultural products for export, preventing it from developing a worthwhile industrial infrastructure of its own, as would have happened under what we now call neo-Liberal world market forces but was then just called Liberalism.To succeed Italy had to do two things: (1) prevent class warfare from crippling its economic development, and (2) restructure the investment system so that foreign financiers couldn't manipulate it.And this they did. Because they analysed the problem in politico-economic terms, not in racial terms, they did not assume that the cure for the economy was to exclude Jews from it. They simply prevented anyone - jew or not - from either playing the stock exchange, or playing the revolutionary agitator.Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 8:14 pm #

PS When was the last time, since fucking Rowan turned up, that we were allowed to discuss Palestinian and ME issues generally?When was the last time we could discuss anything, without being subject to Rowan trying to bring it all round to his fascist point of view and hatred of the "Left", liberals and lately humanists.Well yes, to the extent I will wear a label, I am a humanist and Rowan has attacked me for that, so why would I want to remain part of a blog which is increasingly being ruled by him?Gerry Hiles 01.09.06 - 8:16 pm #

Maybe this could get things back on track:http://observer.guardian.co.uk/ w...1681720,00.htmlGerry Hiles 01.09.06 - 8:26 pm #

gerry, first of all, I'm not under Rowan's thrall. I've known Rowan for a while, before I even had a blog, and like I've said before, there is a LOT I don't agree with what he writes, but generally, he remains civil and sometimes is even very amusing. I am not defending myself, I am explaining that a purely "academic" understanding of Italian Fascism is not sufficient. My husband's family were extreme anti-Fascists (one of them a martyr of the Resistance) so discussions like this used to be the regular thing. Fascism and other totalitarianisms is not my top material, but I don't mind discussing it from time to time. The case of Italy is unusual and very enlightening, really. You are right, Gerry, We should be talking about the ME most of the time, that is basically the point of this blog. But all the threads go on tangents, and you should know that as much as anyone. As I have said before, I try to not be a policeman. I try to let the discourse move where it goes. It is up to everyone to keep it on track, if that is where they want it to be. I've always appreciated when you defend me, but always been upset when you attack other people (unless they're Iby and the serious harassers). No one can take over this blog, because I'm the only one who can post on it. The comments sections are what people make of it, and there are moments when they are fun and stimulating, and others when they are less so. But don't get upset and you will find that things have a low tide and high tide.thecutter Homepage 01.09.06 - 8:33 pm #

I am quite convinced that unless people understand the current systematic deception regarding the role of Jews* in modern international finance - and in its apparent antagonist, international proletarian revolutionism - they will not be able to do a single thing about zionism. This deception takes the form that the zionists can represent themselves as the inheritors of the oppressed anti-imperialist masses, rather than of the oppressors and imperialists, by exploiting the common ignorance of modern social and political history in general.*(not 'the Jews', as if they were a sort of telepathically coordinated solid bloc, but enough of the most powerful Jews, who among other things can use the rest as pawns)Rowan Berkeley 01.09.06 - 9:16 pm #

Where do they hold their mafia-like meetings then Rowan ?I am all for a collective sort-of class interest thingy, such as powerful US corporation, with the US government as their kind of mouth-piece and legislative enabler (after all these things have taken centuries of human culture to accumulate ways of doing things ie western professions) but to put a slant on ecomics with a specific religious character, within a sort of western establishment, is a bit much.What about Japan - do they have a Jewish mafia, and what about the economic meteorite China, where or who are their Jewish-centric Fat Controllers?joe90 Homepage 01.09.06 - 10:55 pm #

Just like BBC News went from dead Blubber to dead chickens, so too have you fellas gone over the edge. The minutiae of the philosphy of fascism just is not relevant to this blog. Stop mooning. Do something practical. Wash your socks. WRITE A LETTER IN SUPPORT OF KRISTIN HALVORSEN. Get a grip!Kassandra 01.09.06 - 11:50 pm #

Now everybody is at it -- Kassandra, I'll talk to who I want about what I want - I don't need you or anyone else's permission (the blog owner excepted for obvious reasons in this case)- don't tell me what I should and should not be doing -- would you like to tell me exactly how human culture works and then I will know, beyond irrefutable doubt, what it is I have to do to instantly right all wrongs in the world ?If you don't know, don't lecture me on what amounts to the sum total of your own ignorance - I have enough of my own to go around, I don't need yours as well -- and if you know so much about what it is we should be doing to help others, please tell me, what is it I'm not doing, that you are, that is such a masterclass in individual brilliance?If there was something that worked, I would have done it by now, we all would, so there isn't - no such thing as instant gratification when it comes to struggles for social justice, equality, freedom from violence and racist ethnic clensing etc- so step off your self-righteous cloud - this is a blog not a UN General Assembly conference -- and stop using one of my recent catchphrases 'get a grip' - get one of your own, like 'you can put that chicken away Mrs', which I am not using at the momentjoe90 Homepage 01.10.06 - 12:30 am #

Joe: "Get a grip" is a "Valley Girl" phrase, from the 60's, a sub-culture of teenagers in the San Fernando Valley in California. Were you a Valley Girl? I don't read your or Gerry's long meanderings, just the final sentences. I read Rowan because he's concise and amusing. Have you sent that money you were going to send? I doubt it. I don't think you even have a creditable job.Kassandra 01.10.06 - 12:54 am #

ouch she doesent think you have a creditable job now that has to hurt . its really sad to see people fall out but its fun too watchsurfer 01.10.06 - 1:41 am #

Geez it's good to have you back joe - you haggis hunting bastard - I thunk I was in a minority of one for a while.Meanwhile, trying to drag things back from Rowan's determination to subject us all and everything to his fascist in-depth analysis that:"Everything wrong with the world can be reduced to bleeding heart leftists/humanists."Maybe those less doctrinaire might care to view:http://www.infovlad.net/And as for you Kassandra (Rowan in drag), you wrote:" I don't read your or Gerry's long meanderings, just the final sentences. I read Rowan because he's concise and amusing."Rowan concise and amusing? I doubt he has a humorous bone in his body, except for his elbow of course.Well done for telling joe that you don't read anything he writes ... little do you know that Mary regards him highly, almost as a brother ... and even virtual brothers protect their virtual sisters and vice versa.Thus you and your paramour Rowan are in deep shit ... well I hope so.I hope that you are both subjected to the comfy chair and that this blog can return to normal.BTW. Has anyone noticed that since I told Av to back off from attacking Mary ... and to realize where his bread is buttered ... he has been silent, though undoubtedly observing things.In a maybe perverse kind of way; I have ended up quite fond of Av ... perhaps a sentimental attachment to the days when we could all take the piss out of him and when he could call us all "fascists" in return ... but then a real fascist closed his own blog and encamped here, to the detriment of everyone, even poor piat, who Rowan brought with him (and Kassandra?).OK Mary. You say that you have known Rowan for years ... but did you ever, previously, know that he is a fascist (well wannabe) who imagines that he knows more about Italy than you do?I somehow cannot imagine that you ever regarded him as a brother, so why not come on board with those who regard you as a sister and dice the little prick.Gerry Hiles 01.10.06 - 2:09 am #

I see what you mean surfer, except that I don't find it fun ... nor pulling wings off flies, nor blowing up frogs (like GWB), nor killing Palestinians (like Sharon), nor any other sadistic pleasure in seeing people in trouble ... so fuck off. Get your rocks off someplace else surfer.Gerry Hiles 01.10.06 - 2:23 am #

In an effort to get back on track, though this post might run out of web space:A Letter from an Arab Citizen to an American MotherMohammed Zedan, Albasrah.netJanuary 8, 2006(Bush and other criminals talk about our Iraqi civilization, so it is important as Arabs to teach the American people about our love and humanity. For that reason I hope that whoever has the ability write in English informs the American mother, the American soldiers and all the Americans the words of justice and truth. Tell then that we are innocent or we die with pride, and we support all the acts that are carried out by the Iraqi and Palestinian insurgency. We would love to hear that our letters are turned into internationally known songs in the American language. Below is a simple letter written by me to an American mother, it not a poem, purely because I am not a poet. Long live the brave Iraqi insurgency; alone it represents our Iraqi society.)The LetterMadam, have you heard…That I talk about humanity.Talk about the soul.Do you know my Madam?Do you know why I have approached you, specifically, and not all Americans?Do you know Madam that in our belief the Heavens lie under the feet of Mothers?Do you feel what we feel as Arabs?We love others just as you do, we feel pain just as you do, we dream just as you do, and we have our small things.Among us are those that are passionate, and among us are the old… the young that cry just like your young that scream.Among us are mothers, whose hearts are full of love and care,And are happy and sad like all people.They cry at times of hardship… until the tears over flow.They remember just like you remember and forget just like you do.Every now and then, the people in my country die for nothing.We die because we are innocent and we are Iraqi.The prisons are filled with us and we are tortured because we are Iraqi. Only because we are Iraqi.In Abu Graib our bodies are piled into pyramids.And you ask us Madam, who does this to us?It is, simply, the ones who you voted for in the White House.Madam, as a loving mother, who feels the hardship of people,And understands the language of children and the innocent laughter after the cry,Madam, the dead and injured are in the heart of America.They are the ones you voted for in the White House.They are the ones you voted for,The ones you voted for Madam.And record this Madam: We will never ever hate anyoneWe will never ever hate anyoneWe don’t even hate the Americans.Imagine this for yourself.A city in my country, where death calls us,It gets us with missiles … phosphorus bombs…with arrows.You eat and we don’t, and you sleep and we don’tAnd we could at anytime become stranded in our own deserts, whilst the cold attacks us.And your soldiers wipe us out with missiles.As days go by American Jets slaughter us.Imagine the begging of the night,Or the start of day,And starving babies cry, and their eyesGerry Hiles 01.10.06 - 2:36 am #

Well it did not all appear, but ...Here is a challenge Rowan:Subject it to your doctrine that bleeding hearts, liberals, humanists and all protesters against inhumanity is what is wrong with the world.Your doctrine of complete antipathy is, right now, being thrust on the people of Iraq by the fascist Washington cabal ... like Il Duce thrust it on the people of Libya and Ethiopia (don't you ever read history?).I have very intimate knowledge of what fascism did to Libya ... same as what it is doing to Iraq ... yet you dare to come here and preach fascism, you sick fucker.Gerry Hiles 01.10.06 - 2:56 am #

That 'poem' just illustrates my point. The same leftist protest mood that actuates the politically correct version of the palestinian struggle activates zionism itself, when it is wearing its victims-of-nazism hat. Result : total impasse.You can have a thousand blogs like this one, a thousand points of light twinkling in the darkness, etcetera, and nothing will happen. This has been obvious since the seventies, as a matter of fact.Leftism is dead, it has been left behind by history. The people who pay for it to keep mouthing platitudes are precisely the people in power who know that it is an excellent diversion from what is really going on.Rowan Berkeley 01.10.06 - 6:43 am #

here's a way of illustrating what I'm saying : look at the various south american states which are currently trying to break free from the USA's financial apron strings. You can easily follow the doings of Peru's Morales, Venezuela's Chavez, etc., via Tom Feeley's aggregator.Now ask yourselves : what basis do the various journalists have for describing these regimes as 'leftish' or 'leftist', as they frequently do? the regimes are radically nationalist. Now there is no Soviet empire for them to attach themselves to, and given that China is no more 'Left' than 'Right', the usage is simply a propaganda term of art to tell the jewish propaganda machine who to root for.Rowan Berkeley 01.10.06 - 7:52 am #